A Rock and a Hard Place

I really don’t feel up to doing much of anything today, including blogging. I really haven’t felt like doing much of anything lately to be honest. I’m not sure if it’s depression, being tired and weary, or both. I think it goes beyond boredom like I was pondering in my last post, though. I have stuff to do, I just don’t want to do any of them… including working.

I feel sick to my stomach. I’ve been anxious and on the verge of tears all day. I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I’m slowly getting crushed between them.

I am dramatic, aren’t I?

But it seriously feels that way. On one hand I have this long distance relationship. But I just can’t cope with having a long distance relationship for a prolonged amount of time. It’s fucking with my sleep and my health (headaches and tummy problems). My anxiety levels go through the roof whenever he leaves. I’m anxious and restless while he’s gone, and I cry pretty much every day.

On the other hand, I can end the relationship. Walk away from it completely, no communication, no friendship. Just leaving the man I love. I imagine it would be hell at first, but within a few weeks, I would most likely start to heal, and maybe, just maybe I could find some peace.

My therapist says I need to cope and grow through this. That I have the strength and the skills to make this relationship work. But I don’t think I do. My job is suffering. My health is suffering. Sometimes it feels like my sanity itself is suffering. I was not meant for a long distance relationship. Maybe the truth is, I’m just not cut out for that type of thing. I want and need a partner who is close to me… who I can spend time with physically, intimately (and no, I’m not talking about sex).

I don’t even need to live with someone, or be up each others asses. But I want to do more then communicate over the internet and see each other once a week. I don’t want something like working late or a rainstorm to mean we can’t see each other. I want to fall asleep together without worrying about him oversleeping, then having to rush to work and still end up 2 hours late. But that is the hand I’ve been dealt. I have to either accept this relationship for what it is, or walk away from it. Choose between a rock and a hard place. What I will ultimately decide to do I can’t even guess. But either way, one thing I do know, it will hurt…

Bored… Restless… and Empty

One of the symptoms of BPD is a persistent feeling of emptiness, which may manifest itself in a variety of ways, including boredom.  I don’t know if that’s why I’m feeling so bored and restless lately, but it very well may be.

Sometimes I am so bored I just sit aimlessly for hours at a time trying to decide what I feel like doing, only to realize I don’t feel like doing anything.  I made a list for such times… a list that has activities I enjoy doing.  But when I get like this, nothing seems appealing.  I can read over the list a hundred times… I can force myself to do something on the list, but i feel like a shell of a person, simply going through the motions without enjoying it.  I usually quickly lose interest in whatever I try… though I’m not certain that’s accurate, since I’m usually not interested in doing it in the first place.  No matter how “fun” it is.  No matter how much I normally enjoy doing it.

For example, I’ll game for a few minutes, get bored, wander around the house, get bored, try knitting, get bored, play with the cats, get bored, try to read, get bored… You get the idea.  Or if I’m at work, it’s more like - check email, get bored, work on a project for a few minutes, get bored, check email again, get bored, go to a meeting, get bored.  Luckily, if there is a deadline I can usually pull it together and get my work done.   But sometimes, it seems like I only spend an hour or two actually working on days like this… because I just can’t seem to find something I want to work on.  Instead, most of my day is spent aimlessly going from task to task.

This is one of those feelings that I have always felt. And because I have never “not” felt this way, I can’t help but wonder if it’s normal.  I mean, when does feeling bored and restless become abnormal?  How often does a normal person feel this way?  How long does the feeling last?  How many activities does a normal person have to try before they find something to alleviate their boredom?  Does not being able to find something I want to do mean I’m empty inside?  Do other people feel empty and restless at times?  If so, how often and for how long?

Worst of all, when I feel this way I also feel worthless.  Bored, restless, and worthless.  And i believe that if I could find just one thing to be interested in, one person to spend time with, that the feeling of emptiness and worthlessness will go away.  But it doesn’t.

I want to fill the emptiness, quell the boredom, but I don’t know how.  I want to learn a better way.  But I don’t even know where to start.

DBT in Action… Challenging Myths

Yesterday I hit a rough spot.  There was a time not to long ago that a day like yesterday would have caused me to declare my attempts at healing a failure and see myself as weak and broken for getting emotional.  But in hindsight, the rough spot only lasted about 20 to 30 minutes, and I was able to remain relatively composed, short of a few tears.   A few months ago, I would have probably felt the need to go home and hide away from the world over a similar situation.  Once I re-centered myself, I reread my blog entry and noticed all of the myths I have in there… myths that I tell myself and act as triggers, often leading me into a spiral.  So I decided today, after I got a little bit of distance between my emotions and the situation, to use a DBT skill I’ve learned to examine and challenge some of those myths.

Myth: I’m afraid I’ve made a terrible mess of my life. A mess that there is no turning back from.

Challenge Statement:  Certain aspects of my life might be a mess right now, but there are also areas where I am doing very well.  And a financial setback is something I’ve survived before and can get through again.

Myth: I gave up family. I gave up a home. And I gave up my financial stability…

Challenge Statement:  I have not given up these things permanently.  To be honest, I didn’t have family in Florida either, I have not lived in my “home” for a year, don’t plan on ever living there again (that’s one HELL of a commute), and though my credit will take a hit, taking a loss on the condo will make the other bills I have more manageable and I will be in a better position to pay off other debt.

Myth: All while being alone in this world. No husband. No family. Just me standing solitary as my world crashes around me.

Challenge Statement: I am not alone.  Just because my “family” was never there for me, it doesn’t mean that there is no one there to help me though this.  I have a support network of close friends who have stood by me through the toughest of times.  My boyfriend has been helping out where he can, both financially and emotionally as well.

Myth: I don’t want to trade everything else for this new career. I don’t want to start over with nothing but my job.

Challenge Statement:  I may be starting over, but I have more then my job.  I still have my friends.  I still have my cats.  I still have a nice home to live in.  And I have healed more since moving here then I ever did back “home”, so I have already gained so much by being here.

Myth: I’m going under and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to keep from drowning…

Challenge Statement:  I do know what to do to keep from drowning.  I have a solid and workable plan for getting though this.  I am already building a financial cushion.  I am and will continue to take steps to weather this storm… I won’t drown because I already know where the lifeboats are.

Myth: I’m tired of struggling to stay afloat as I watch everything I’ve ever worked for get swept away.

Challenge Statement:  I am weary… and sometimes it feels like I’m losing everything, but I have an index card with over two dozen things I’ve accomplished over the past year, as well as pretty long list of all the things I have gained.  Most importantly, I have a fuller, happier life… and that can’t be taken away by bad credit.

Myth:  Day by day, I sink deeper, and I am afraid that one day, I’ll be pulled under and not be able to, or even want to resurface from the depths.

Challenge Statement:  I’ve been through some pretty intense stuff in the past.  Things that I never thought I would survive while I was in the middle of them.  But I did.  I found the strength and courage to make it through.  I can do it again.

I’ve finally come to realize that living a healthy life is not living a “perfect” one.  There will be times when I struggle and times when I feel overwhemed.  But as long as I can learn from these struggles, I will continue to grow.  And that is the best anyone can do… learn and grow from the rough times, whether they have BPD or not.

Going Under…

A sense of dread and panic has swirled around me as I watch all of the things I’ve worked so hard for slip away. The dreams I one had are being swept away one at a time; having a home… a husband… financial stability. Three things I have struggled to achieve and hold onto to for almost 10 years. Three things that have always been at the top of my priority list. Three things traded in for a career.

I’m afraid I’ve made a terrible mess of my life. A mess that there is no turning back from.

I got a divorce because we had stopped growing… I had stopped growing. And I just couldn’t stay stagnant anymore. It’s the same reason I started to pursue a new career. I had gone as far in education that I wanted to. And the financial stability tied into both decisions as well. My ex-husband was perfectly fine with barely getting by, being without retirement and benefits, and letting me be responsible for paying most of the bills. But I wasn’t.

It was the same with teaching. Working my ass off, never getting ahead financially… Now don’t get me wrong here. I’m not talking about being rich. I am talking about being able to pay bills on time and have enough extra to set some aside for savings, and to be able to buy things or go out once in a while.

I don’t regret the divorce… or the career change. What I regret is what I gave up to seek a better life for myself. I gave up family. I gave up a home. And I gave up my financial stability…

Now, 36 years old, I find myself having to foreclose on what used to be my home and watch my credit, something I worked a lifetime to establish, plummet into ruin. All while being alone in this world. No husband. No family. Just me standing solitary as my world crashes around me. All for a career. Something that was supposed to enhance everything else… something that has ultimately destroyed everything else.

I don’t want to trade everything else for this new career. I don’t want to start over with nothing but my job. Even if it is a great one. I don’t want this life. But as I said earlier. There is no going back. Everything that was there has already been lost.

I’m going under and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to keep from drowning… in debt… in loneliness… in despair. I’m tired of struggling to stay afloat as I watch everything I’ve ever worked for get swept away. Day by day, I sink deeper, and I am afraid that one day, I’ll be pulled under and not be able to, or even want to resurface from the depths.

Take ~THAT~ Gas Prices!

This weekend, I finally acted on what I’ve been contemplating for a while now.  I’ve spent the last month researching ways of not dumping hundreds of dollars in my gas tank every month.  Ok.. not hundreds, but over a hundred, and that’s close enough!  Anyway, I currently drive a VW Beetle and you would think she wouldn’t use much gas… but she’s a Turbo and eats gas.  And with the price of gas, which is ridiculous if I might add, and a tight budget, I needed to find another option as far as transportation goes.

So I’ve been investigating Scooters as an alternative.  And I’m not the only one… it seems a LOT of people are turning to Scooters and Motorcycles as a way to cut down on fuel costs.  Maybe if more people continue to do so, the people jacking up the cost of gas will finally take notice… Anyway, I digress.  Back to the subject at hand.

My commute to work is not that long, and a scooter would get 5 times the gas mileage as my Bug does.  The only problem is, trying to find a quality scooter at a reasonable price was leading my down a dead end.  My goal was to not have payments that exceeded the amount of gas I would be saving while still having a vehicle I could feel confident wasn’t going to show up at my doorstep in a crate marked “some assembly required.”

This Saturday, after a month of research, I went to the local motorcycle shop I’ve been working with to see if they had made any headway on the scooter search… and that’s when I saw her.

A sexy, silver and black 250cc Hyosung Aquila cruiser.  I was a bit reluctant to get a full fledged motorcycle before because I had never ridden one (well, I had as a passenger, but not as the driver), so a Scooter seemed safer.  But after thinking about it, it started to make sense.  The bike has gotten rave reviews from a large variety of sources, has a better safety record then scooters do, gets 4 times the gas mileage of my car, and comes with a year of free gas.  Yes… you heard me correctly.  A YEAR of gas prepaid by the manufacturer.  I was in love!

The only downside… I have to actually learn how to ride a motorcycle.  So I signed up for a safety course that teaches you how to ride, bought some safety gear, and got my first lesson on Saturday.  It was a little scary at first, but I think I did well, and am getting more and more comfortable each time I take her for a short ride around the parking lot.  I still have a bit of practice to do until I am confident enough to take her on the road.  But soon, she will become my primary vehicle, taking me everywhere I want to go, except for on rainy days and trips to the grocery store.  I figure that it will take 6-8 weeks for me to use as much gas as I used every 2 weeks in my car.  That’s a savings of over 80 dollars a month.  More actually, since all the gas I put in her for the next year* is already paid for.

So take THAT gas prices!  I’ve got myself a new set of wheels…

The Battle of the Bulge

I’m still trying to drop a few pounds, but I’m not what you would call a typical dieter.  I don’t buy into the whole “deprive yourself, lose weight, go back to ~normal~ eating, gain weight back” cycle.  I’ve been on the ride too many times.  Instead of dieting, I simply try to watch what I’m eating, make healthy choices, and be more active if I need to get into better shape.

I’m not what you would call petite, but I’m not obese either.  I prefer the to use the term “voluptuous” to describe myself.   I stopped trying to squeeze my body into a size that’s too small for me a while ago; stopped trying to reach an ideal weight or size.  Instead, I want to be healthy… have a healthy body no mater what size clothes I have to buy.  Don’t get me wrong, I still have those moments where I look in the mirror and think, “Gah… I’m too fat,” but for the most part, I am fine with my body.

But when my doctor was figuring out the best meds to help with my BPD, she prescribed  Seroquel.  I was only on it a month, but it made me ravenous.  I have never had such a strong urge to snack. I even resorted to putting signs on my fridge and cabinets to stop me from eating (especially late at night).  The signs didn’t help. I don’t even think duct tape would have helped.

In that month, I gained 10 pounds.  My doctor immediately took me off the meds, but the damage was already done.  Weight gained, pattern of late night snacking established.

It took about another month to kick the late night snacking, and since then, I’ve lost about half the weight I gained.  If I felt healthier, I wouldn’t even worry about the extra weight, but I don’t.  My blood sugar is harder to control and I feel sluggish.  It’s amazing how much of a difference a few pounds can make.  So I’m trying to be more mindful of my eating habits and activity levels.  After all, part of having a healthy life means taking care of my body as well as my mind.

So I’m trying an on-line fitness tracking program.  It’s called FitDay and is free to use.  You can keep track of what you eat and your activities and it does all the calculations for you.  It even has pie charts.  You’ve got to love a fitness program that has pie charts…

So I have my own fitness journal on FitDay now, and I welcome my readers to join me in keeping track of not just my journal, but to create one of their own.  Especially if you are on medications that can lead to weight gain as a side effect (which many anti-psychotics and anti-depressants do).   And if you do, please feel free to share your journal by leaving a link in the comments section of this post.  Maybe if we support each other in the battle of the bulge, we may actually emerge victorious.

Link to the FitDay website

Link to EnygmaMoon’s Fitday Journal

And he Huffed and he Puffed and Blew My House Down

Reality has finally caught up with my dream job. You see, the dream job meant moving to Texas from Florida, which wasn’t bad in and of itself. They paid for the move, the climate is about the same, and it was a chance to live in a beautiful city nestled in “hill country.” The only problem was, i was offered the job only 6 months after closing on my new Condo in Florida. But I was confident it would somehow work out… that this was a once in a lifetime chance to live my dream, so I packed up and left my new home. That was a year ago.

I found a renter very soon after moving… someone I knew (well, who my boyfriend knew), so I thought it was a sign that things would work out after all. Even though her rent was less then the mortgage, it was manageable. But today, I found out she won’t be renewing her lease, which ends in July. So when July ends, so will my ability to make my mortgage payment.

I fell apart earlier… at work. I hate getting emotional at work, but the tears came and the harder I tried to stop them, the more emotional I got. So I went into a coworkers office, someone who is understanding, and just said I needed someone to talk to. She passed the Kleenex and we talked about it, my fear of foreclosure, and feeling overwhelmed by all of the financial hardships I’ve gone through since I moved here. Was the price for getting my dream job too high?

She told me about her parents, successful business owners, who walked away from their house during the 80’s housing crash. About how a foreclosure wouldn’t be a blackmark on my credit forever, and how it wasn’t a failure to have to consider it as an option. Normally, i would have been too paniced to even listen to her and thoughts of doom and gloom would be swarming me. But this time, as I listened, the tears stopped and I started to see possibilities instead of failure.

I’m not sure what I’m going to do, or how I’m going to get through this. I know there are several options open to me other then foreclosure. Like a short sale. Unfortunately, its not likely I will be able to sell the condo with the housing market being what it is (especially in Florida). But for some reason I’m not terrified anymore. I’m not ruminating on the negatives and am staying hopeful instead of hopeless. I don’t feel the dread of not having someone who can fix it for me. I feel strong and resilient instead of alone and afraid.

What’s up with that???

To be faced with what seems like an unsurmountable problem and not fall apart. That is another dream. To not feel the need to run to someone else to make it better. To feel confident in the face of adversity. I’m not sure if it’s a result of my healing, but I’m going to bask in this newfound feeling for as long as i can. My house may have been blown away, but my spirit and my resiliance sure as hell won’t be.

Sick Day…

I called in sick today… something I absolutely hate doing unless I truly feel like crap. Of course, I’m working from home despite feeling icky, so it’s not really a day off, except I am getting some rest between tasks and am still in my PJ’s.

I think I am dealing with a mild case of food poisoning. Last night I got back from group late and was starving by the time I got settled. I grabbed some leftover chicken salad, paused a moment after opening it and thought, “That doesn’t smell right, does it?” I sniffed it again, remembered how hungry I was, decided it was good enough, and ate it anyway. Well… I think I should have stuck with my first impression after all.

One of the problems with living alone is I’m not used to cooking for just one person. I was married for 10 years (cooking for 2 with a husband who had a hollow leg and ate as much as 3 people) and was raised in an Italian household. Needless to say, I am used to cooking a LOT more food then I can eat on my own.

I make good use of my freezer and the art of portioning meals into individual servings, but sometimes, even when I do that, food will sit, either in the fridge or in the freezer, longer then it should. I hate to throw it away (especially expensive things like meat because I am on such a tight budget), but I have ended up tossing quite a few things away uneaten none-the-less. But I push that “freshness” envelope a bit too much apparently, trying not to be wasteful, and my tummy is sending a message not to do it again.

So I’m at home and my cats have just realized that I’m still here. All three swarmed the bed wanting some special daytime attention. After all, I must have stayed home just for THEM, right?   Those are my 3 babies over there. *points to the right* The top one is Leah, with Cozmo on the bottom, and Baby in the middle. They really help to make living alone bearable. When I get really down and need a reason to hold on, there are 3 fuzzy ones just waiting for me to pet them.

Dealing with a stomach thing is even more complicated by the fact that I have diabetes… have had it since I was a kid. So having a stomach thing means I can’t eat when I’m supposed to, take my meds when I’m supposed to, and have to deal with low blood sugar on top of dehydration and an overall feeling of ickyness. Yes, I’m having a bit of a pity party, but there is also some genuine concern behind it. One of the reason’s I’ve been so scared to live on my own is because I am afraid I will get sick and there will be no one around to help me. But to be honest, I do a pretty good job taking care of myself, so it’s an unfounded fear . Maybe this whole experience will help me to realize that I’m not as incapable as I sometimes paint myself to be.

Ironically, last night, one of the people in my group said he was feeling better then he had in possibly his entire life. And that it scared the hell out of him. He talked about how he feels like he’s been able to avoid a great deal of responsibility because of his illness (he is Bipolar) and now that he’s healing, he is able to handle more responsibility, and therefore, more responsibility is given to him by those around him. And that’s scary. I’ve read that some people (BPD’s especially) will often relapse if they are starting to heal because they are afraid of the responsibilities they are suddenly faced with. Remember, one of the steps to healing is taking responsibility for yourself and your behavior, something many BPD’s have never done on any large scale.

Another reason for a relapse may also be a fear that when the people around you, the loved ones that the BPD has looked to for support, might leave once they realize you can do things on your own and don’t “need” them anymore. I know both of these things have gone through my head as my healing continues. “What if I’m expected to do something and I can’t do it?” “What if my friends don’t spend as much time with me when they realize I can be happy on my own without them?” These thoughts are part of the distorted thinking that still runs through my head, even today. But I’m learning to counter them when they pop up, and in doing so, I can stop my emotions from hopping on top of them and running off out of control. It’s being able to recognize small steps, like this one that, that reminds me that I’m not as sick as I was.

So, even though I may be in the middle of a “I feel like crap, my tummy hurts” day, one thing it is not, is a “sick day”.

As promised… build a Self Soothing Kit!

When I heard this idea in my DBT group, I knew I had to go home and make my very own “Self Soothing Kit” right away. Unfortunately for me, it was mentioned in passing during the “mindfulness” module and I had no idea what a “Self Soothing Kit” was. But being “clever”, I figured I’d just look it up online when I got home. Much to my dismay, I couldn’t find directions for assembling my own kit anywhere. But did that stop me? Hell no!

So I gathered up a pretty little basket and all of the things I could think of that would be calming if I started to spiral. Here is what I decided to include:

A CD of meditation music.

Scented votive candles and a small crystal candle holder.

A polished piece of quartz I used to meditate. It is perfectly clear except for a small spiderweb crack that runs through the very center of it it. It reminds me that I can have clarity in my life even if I have some “cracks” on the inside. It also reminds me that something doesn’t need to be perfect to be beautiful.

Several assorted teabags of my favorite teas.

Index cards so I can write challenges to the myth’s I’m ruminating on.

Pretty stationary so I can write letters to friends when I’m feeling lonely.

A mini photo album of aforementioned friends.

A beautiful hand-turned pen that I made back in my woodworking days so I can write my challenges and letters.

Two mini chocolates.

Wisdom Cards with inspirational sayings on them.

A small book with inspirational writings about healing.

A laser pointer. (I know, you’re thinking, “What a weird thing to put in your kit.” Stay with me… this will make sense in a moment…) The pointer reminds me to play with my cats. They love chasing it around, and its guaranteed that I’ll be smiling and laughing after only a few minutes of making them run in circles and jump around trying to catch the “red bug”.

My kit is at home on a shelf in my bedroom, and I have a feeling I’m missing a few things that are in it. But you get the idea. It is easy to get to and easily visible from my bed, which is where I usually retreat to when I spiral or just feel like moping.

So, my challenge to my readers is to create your own “Self Soothing Kit”. There are no wrong answers, so have fun with it and include anything that makes you happy. Some things you may want to consider are:

• Try to include things that soothe all 5 senses.
• Use any container that works for you. It can be a basket, a box, a “hope chest”, or a decorative bag. Anything. If the container is somehow special or means something personal to you, all the better.
• If something is too big for whatever container you decide to store your things in, consider putting something small but symbolic in it’s place. For example, I like to do puzzles to relax, so instead of trying to shove the entire, half-assembled puzzle in my kit, I could put in a single piece to remind me I can work on my puzzle to calm myself. Hey, that’s not a bad idea!
• Keep your kit somewhere where you can see it when you’re upset. It does you no good if you can’t find it easily when you need it.
• Take the time to make it special and personal TO YOU. And feel free to add to and revisit your kit once in a while to remind you it’s there and what wonderful treasures you put in it.

So have fun putting together your “Self Soothing Kit”. If you select the items and place them in the kit mindfully, I think you’ll find that simply the act of creating your kit will bring a smile to your face. And I’d love to hear with you come up with, so feel free to inspire us by leaving a comment with all of the things you decide to include in your kit.

What a year it’s been…

It was a year ago yesterday that I packed up my entire life and moved to Texas to pursue my “dream job”. And right now, I’m feeling alone and abandoned… I miss having local friends.  I started to make “friends” here but I know they will never speak to me again, and it’s my fault because I’m sick. There is something wrong with me. That’s why they won’t even give me a second chance… because there is something wrong with me. I’ve been here a year, I’ve lost so much. I had people who invited me out to do things and spend time with them and I ruined it. I couldn’t control my BPD… I let it control me and I ended up alone as a result. Even my relationship ended.

Now I’m alone in new city with a new career I can’t even seem to focus on anymore. At this moment, I really want to quit my job and run away… maybe to San Antonio so I can be with K. Maybe to Louisiana or back to Florida. I don’t know where… I just know I don’t want to be here and alone anymore.

This week in DBT, we’re supposed to try a skill called Pro’s and Con’s. It’s basically a list of consequences, both positive and negative, of choosing a particular behavior. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right, but I might has well try.

Quitting my job and moving away

Pro’s:

• I can start over in a place where there are not so many painful memories.
• I can go somewhere where I have close friends who care about me.
• I don’t ever have to see the people here who have hurt me.
• If I go to San Antonio I can be with the man I love and not have to go through the weekly torture of him leaving.

Con’s:

• I won’t be able to pay my bills and would likely go bankrupt.
• I won’t be able to continue therapy with my current counselors.
• I will be leaving my dream job and have to go back into education unless I was to find another position in my field (which I likely wouldn’t since I have only worked in my field for a year).

Staying at my job and tolerating the pain.

Con’s:

• I will have to continue living here alone and without close local friends
• My relationship with the man I love will continue to disintegrate until there is nothing left but heartache.
• I have to deal with daily reminders that I have no one here as I am forced to witness my former “friends” happily hanging out.
• Feel like an unwanted outsider as I watch the people around me carrying on meaningful relationships while I’m alone.
• Be unable to focus at work and continue to produce work that falls below my standards and that I’m not proud of.

Pro’s:

• I will be able to pay my bills (barely, but at least I could)
• I will be able to continue writing professionally for a living.
• I can continue therapy and hopefully continue to heal.
• If people here ever give me a chance, I could eventually have great friendships with people I have a lot in common with.
• Withstanding the pain can make me a stronger, more resilient person.
• I wouldn’t have to cope with the stress of starting over again in a new city.

I still don’t know what to do. I’ve been here a year and I feel so isolated and so lonely. I just don’t want to be alone anymore. Can’t anyone see how much I’m suffering? And if they can, do they even care?